Charles Liao - Founder and CEO of Day22
Welcome everybody to another episode ofGanbei. I'm your host Art. And today we have the privilege of being joined byCharles Liao. Charles is a serial entrepreneur in the purest sense of the term, and we're thrilled to have him.
Charles has a new brand he's launching called Day 22. We're going to get into that on the men's skincare market inChina, and also what it takes to launch a brand from scratch at direct to consumer brands. So welcome, Charles.
Art: Thrilled to have you on let's jump in to a bit of it.
Can you give the audience a bit of background about yourself? How long in China, what you've been doing here? Anything you want to tell the audience?
Charles: Oh, God. Let me pull up my LinkedIn profile. First I don't like the term serialentrepreneur. I prefer Chinese businessmen because I think in my 13 years, sofar being here, that's what I'd turned into.
I arrived in ‘08 doing group buying trying to copy the Groupon model for China. We've done F&B via Caliburger. We'vedone Air purifiers via Mila. We have our own advisory company. That's helped brands in fashion and fitness launch in, in China, in Shanghai. And recently we're on to men's skincare. I'm a modern day Chinese Renaissance businessman.
Art: That's probably a better description. And what's with the Brand nameof Day 22. What's the significance of that?
Charles: Day 22 is a it's meant to symbolize the idea of of creating goodhabits and making progress. There is a concept of taking 21 days to establish any habit.
So on Day 22 you're essentially this new person. So that's why we chose that as their name.
Art: Now you have built successful companies before, as we've talked about most recently, Mila, which has as I know it was a kind of a direct to consumer brand air purifiers that you started here in Shanghai.
And actually, but now it's in 80 countries, as I recall, and especially in markets like the U S mature markets. You've also recently gotten funding, I think for that from Electrolux. And then now, recently, Paul Allen's Vulcan capital in the US what lessons have you learned from the companies you started in the past and it makes you think you can pull off something so different now, like men's skincare in China?
Charles: First and foremost, I think failing a few times throughout,throughout this last decade or so certainly helps you understand. Which, main risks to mitigate with Mila. One thing that I think was something that hamstrung us from the beginning, launching in China was the fact that we were rushing the product out.
And that came back to bite us. Obviouslynow we're onto to new versions and we've refined the product over time. But outof the gates, that was that was probably the biggest thorn in our side. So with Day 22 we actually went and spent close to 20 months for product development.
And so men's skin care again is vastly different from consumer electronics. We really started a fresh, from white board from understanding what men in China's skincare needs are, what their pain points are. And then, going to form going on to formulate products that were targeted to address those pain points and needs.
And that, again took more than a year. We built a supply chain ourselves and we basically took our sweet time to ensure that the product was as good as we could get it as confidence we could be. Before we before we launch.
Art: But can you describe a bit about that? The differences in let's say theR & D process on the front end for building the two different kinds ofproducts, right?
Like air purifiers, I'm gonna oversimplifyas it's more or less the sum of its components. You put the, you have a filter source. I believe it was what 3M is it? This, and then you've got, yeah the machine. I'm not trying to say it's not complicated how to make it all work together, but it's more or less.
You've got to figure out the components to go to the app and, you're going to get a certain result. But I imagine skincare is a little more trial and error as far as the right mixes and stuff like that. So what was the experimentation process?
Charles: Yeah so with electronics it's very tangible again, you have, say 50 different components you bolt on together. I think the biggest learning curve for us at the time was the firmware and the software. Now going to skincare, to me, it's, clear white goop in a bottle. That again, that, that learning curve was which much was much steeper. And that was my ex dictation having failed chemistry in high school and college going to this was our first hire was going to be.
A chemist from the skincare industry whowould hold our hands through every step of the process worth we, the way wevetted factories. We took learnings from my experience with Mila in terms of choosing specifically ones that already had a good background and experience in product development.
I think one thing that is a bit differentis. At the time back in 2014, 15, when we were developing our Mila productespecially with respect to IOT certain firmware electronic components, etcetera. It was still relatively nascent which, nowadays it's counter-intuitive, you think seven years, eight years ago so we actually had a whole.
The hands of our engineers in China, ourfactory to get the right components. We wanted to get the right algorithms wewanted. And with cosmetics, it's in China until 2021 or 2020 at the time, it's a very mature market. So you go to any one of these established more established factories and they at least have a decent, fundamental idea of how to approach the product development or at least the the production side of things. It's, again, it comes down to a mixture of working with the right resources and hiring the right team. That's helped us overcome that transition from electronics to to skincare.
Art: I remember even talking with the factory in the beginning. Therewas, I think the idea that the brand would somehow have a bunch of differentproducts from the beginning or would have started with certain products, this versus that. But the factory itself, I think actually made some suggestions to start with some very basic map, a little more mass market products, like basic shampoo and stuff like that.
So I guess that's to your point that thefactory is actually have just as much experience even on seeing what lots ofdifferent other customers are doing in the market.
Charles: Yeah, I think those learnings were important. For us to have abenchmark going in a lot of that advice in terms of the market opportunity andsuch we referenced.
But I don't think we really took to heart because we saw for us opportunity was to do all the things. So a lot of thesebrands we're not doing in the market, so when the factories who else were telling us, okay, You want to target men just come out with a refreshing and shampoo or body bodywash with arts or ourselves.
Why is, why are all these brands onlyfocusing on shampoo and body wash and functional skincare for face careproducts? So yeah, in that sense, I think we, I think from the beginning, we came into this with a lot more or patience in terms of knowing that it was going to be this, one to two year journey.
To develop the products, to understand themarket, to understand our consumer and to, again come up with the formulations ourselves.
Art: A natural question would be given that, of course you said that the most important first hires was someone with a good chemist background to help with the product development mix and so forth.
One might think that naturally the person to come to, to start a brand like this would be someone from the big cosmeticcompanies like L'Oreal and Nivea or something. One of the other ones that already have maybe men's lines, although it might just be slapping a Nivea for Men on it. But with that kind of a background versus someone who may not have the entrepreneurial experiences. That's my point, versus someone who has more of an entrepreneurial experience, but doesn't have as much of the industry background. If you had to pick one or the other, obviously you're probably biased about this, but what what do you think makes the better founder for a new brand like this in the entrepreneurial experience or industry experience?
Charles: Gosh, that's tough because, having, and again, taking this alert,this journey, I can say that, we spoke to so many industry experts to cleantheir knowledge and their insights on putting together the product portfolio, the product sizing, the pricing, et cetera. I certainly don't discount that type of deep industry know-how for those that are coming from a L'Oreal or a Unilever, et cetera I guess it all depends on their way of thinking.
I think, the kind of stereotypical bigcorporate inertia can apply. But I think, having a few years of industryexperience under the belt would have sped up a lot of our development cycle, knowing what to look for, knowing what risks to, to avoid. Yeah, I certainly think it would have helped.
The entrepreneurial spirit, I think resideswithin everyone. That, that same product manager in L'Oreal, who's fed up withhow they're approaching a certain market or a certain opportunity I'm sure has has the ability to, jump out and do something on his own.
His or her own but potentially withstronger on or underpinnings than than what we had to work with.
Art: But maybe do you have to, I guess the question also is, do you haveto have certain DNA that you might not have having built your career in a bigcorporation to just to start out and do something like this?
You'd have all the industry knowledge inthe world, but if you'd never built something before.
Charles: Yeah. I, the whole entrepreneurial or just, doing your own business thing, it comes it's. I liken it to like fighting or boxing. You stepped inside the ring.
If you get punched a bunch of times andwhat it feels like to get punched, and to take a hit to a certain extent youdon't have to be a better boxer, a better fighter to step into the ring the next time to, to feel more confident or comfortable. You, at least at the end of the day, know what it's like to get hit.
So you you have. A certain frame of mind going in, and I think that's helpful. So that applies to starting your own business as well.
Art: What kind of hits? So somebody, some the people that doubt that whatyou're doing will succeed or people that or you try to do something and there'sa setback, or what kind of hits.
Charles: Failures, stepping on mines, not listening when you should have, all these things, right?
That more or less, you have to figure outfor yourself because there's not a specific playbook for every type of businessthat you want to you want to build. So having, even if it's an unrelated industry I think as a whole you start to get a sense of.
What to look for when, even at the planningstage and certainly at the execution stage. I think one of the things, again,going back to Mila versus or skincare project, the 22 just the product itself, right? With Mila, I think one of the most challenging aspects of going to market starting off was the fact that our product.
We always said it was like a 10 footer. Andagain, this was back in 2015, has nothing to do with our, our next gen versionsnow. But back then we always knew that, we could have, we just didn't afford ourselves more time to refine the product. Whereas, stepping into Day 22, we knew from the very beginning, I knew from the very beginning that.
We weren't going to go to market until theproduct was absolutely as good as we could get it, but that's of course, counter to quote conventional wisdom on howstartups are supposed to work. So there's the Silicon Valley moniker of, MVPs and so forth, move fast and break things and all that.
That's you don't think that applies in thisspace?
Charles: What I think, channel marketing is just so expensive that, if youdon't come, if you don't hit the ground running with the best product that youcan. You always hamper your start. And so that, to me just leads to a lot of, burning through capital to try to figure things out.
It's not in the US where, you can puttogether a website, do some digital marketing, some social media marketing witha few thousand bucks and probably get, a decent amount of data. And maybe even some traction here.
Art: Yeah, that's just that devil's advocate a bit because I know one of the inspirations for the brand was Hims inthe US and men's they make cures for baldness, EDD, so forth.
And I remember the story that they did do abit of an MVP model. I think they threw up a website with a basic fee paymentmechanism, and that was it. And they were actually just testing of the demand was there in the first place. For some of these products, maybe it's a bit different because.
Those are products, which had not reallybeen sold to direct to consumer before unlike shampoo and body wash. But what do you take from that brand hymns as a, as an example? Cause I know it's something that came up when this whole idea was percolating with him, it signified a market opportunity that we thought wouldcross over to the China as well, in terms of, guys that just aren't prone to.
Talking about certain problems that theyhave at the same time being in the collective consumer within that space forChina, that would be skincare. Going back to just the different frameworks, I would say that in the US, you can launch a business with a product that you continue to refine and iterate.
And one, the cost of marketing, especiallystarting off as much lower, again, you can throw up a website for a couple ofhundred bucks. If you wanted to do most of the work yourself here, you get on Tmall, it's a hundred K Renminbi deposit. And you start up, you have to hit certain revenue thresholds, or you're essentially delisted.
And so you really have to be very preparedto enter the market. Two is here, let's just say skincare in the US if you wereto launch any sort of skincare business you'd be one of maybe, under 100, let's say that has actually gone through the motions of putting together a product, some form of branding, packaging, et cetera.
And now they're facing the consumer inChina. You probably want to have, several thousand because all these factories re out there putting out half baked products all day long. And so you're jockeying for, a consumer attention that space. So unless you have something that really outshines them again, you end up lost in the in the marketing.
Art: Maybe if you could dive into that a bit deeper about that, it ismore and more well-known even outside of China that it's expensive to, to doe-commerce here as far as getting people's attention, whether it's any kind of paid promotion activities or so forth, or however your customer acquisition costs, how that your marketing dollars are spent.
Why is that? Why is it just because it's so competitive? So you have to spend more, or the pricing of the, some of thesetactics or for people that don't know much about it.
Charles: Wow kind of a loaded question because One, the platforms don't playas nicely especially together. You have JD siloed from, Tmall, all siloed from Tecent,wishing, et cetera, and so forth.
So minimum crossover effects there'svirtually no retargeting. There's a lot of friction going from platform toplatform for the consumer. And these separate platforms have all built kind of moats around themselves, right? And if you want to play within that platform they there's, in my opinion, there's a very short term vision for them to try to generate as many ad dollars in as many marketing revenues as possible from each call it vendor or brand that's on their platform.
Whereas I think the view that let's sayFacebook, Instagram, or Google takes it. They want you to succeed because theyknow as you scale they make money alongside you, right? Your, as your, let's say, your ad spend scales, then you know, they, they want to give you the tool kit. They want to give you the transparency and the higher return on ad spend for you to succeed so that you can spend more with them.
I think here, it's, they just want you tocommit as much nominal dollars upfront as possible, and they don't care abouthow you do it. Yeah, two, three, four, five years from them. So I
Art: know Day 22 is not planning a big kind of sexy marketing blowoutbudget to spend acquiring customers.
What is the playbook then?
Art: So I know that I know that Day 22 is not planning a big kind of sexymarketing plan spending a lot of marketing dollars upfront, or maybe at anypoint in, and we talked about how expensive it is to get people's attention.
How else can you get people's attention? What's the playbook for Day 22?
Charles: I think what's the goal here is that we establish, a more intimatedialogue with our male customers. We see the marketplaces, whether it's L'Orealfor men or, to Dear Boyfriend, established incumbents and nascent brands that have burned through some capital to, to show, start to show traction.
What we noticed is that these engagementsare very superficial, right? So they're trying to sell attraction. They'retrying to sell success and aspiration and so forth. But in reality, I think with men, a lot of times. Us included me included, we harbor our own stress points, our own problems and it's tougher to get those out of men in general.
So for us the market opportunity we see andthis kind of seeps into our tactical because, how do we establish a deeperdialogue, right? How do we look at depth over breadth in terms of, everything from customer acquisition to user engagement. So for us, for instance we want to go above and beyond and engage are customers deeper with respect to customer service.
Even if they're not buying a specificproduct from us the way we position ourselves and the way our brandcommunication approach the way we approach our brand communication is we want to be extremely relatable and authentic and really speak to men. As real men, right?
Not as a brand, who's just trying to sellthem, the that concept of success or something, but, understanding that theyactually do have problems and we're here to。
Art: Are these brands we mentioned L'Oreal and others, they do have men'slines of skincare products. What do you think is maybe you already answered the question a bit in your prior answer, but what do you think is.
Preventing them from having thatconversation with men or what do you think they're just tempted to throw alabel on their existing product formulas, maybe with a few tweaks and say it's L'Oreal for men.
For big, why can't big brands do this?Like, why is it like, what are they doing just haphazardly or are they just,are they not think they just see it as a check, the box opportunity.
Charles: So maybe the existing businesses are already doing pretty okay. Onthe female side. And this is true. So they're not even willing to allocate theresources to experiment. And that's what, yeah. We see from, and that's why they acquire all these different players.
Art: But we, I think at this point, when, especially in the last twoyears, plenty of marketing reports about men's products in general, right?
Yeah. Products that were traditionally andnot just China, US anywhere, but in China, traditionally seen as femaledominated categories, skincare again is there is a classic case. And I think now the, it, I don't think it's a secret anymore that this is a big. A potential market already an existing market, but growing very fast.
Do you still see that? There's well, ofcourse, it's good that there's not a lot of brands let's say in the space rightnow. Do you see more brands coming into the space and you see this space getting crowded too at some point? Or is it still pretty open?
Charles: I think over time you will start to see a crowd build.
Now out of that crowd, which are actuallyformulating for men in China that's the question mark I'd have, in, in skincareso far, what we've seen is most new brands tend to take the approach of going to a factory, white labeling or, ODM and being at best. And just putting their other brands loading it through their channels that there may already have some sort of comfort in.
So it's more of a a marketing game to them.Whereas I think that's very different from our approach to the extent that wewere actually out to solve, some of these important problems that men have with respect to school.
Art: So certainly there's almost an education aspect to it.
A dialogue aspect to it, but also aneducation aspect to it. Where some of the consumers actually. Maybe this, Iassume that the demographics is what 25 year old men, 20 to 25 year old, maybe had not been using anything before. Something very simple, right. And not understanding how they take care of their skin affects their, I assume their personal life, their confidence career progression.
And only at this point in time, are theycoming of age and probably need help? Not just on Not just on what the productscan do for them, but the problems that they're facing in their lives that these products can help with indirectly, is the way to put it.
Charles: Yeah, that's absolutely true.
The, again, going back to what I saidearlier about how most brands are approaching this on a slightly moresuperficial level that's partially because skincare. Traditionally is approach for women. And those, I think those purchase habits are just quite different.
That demo is quite different, right? WhenL'Oreal sells cosmetics and skin care to women, they're constantly turning outnew products. Because, women tend to be very experimental within that category and want to try the newest thing to see if it works incrementally better than what they currently have.
And as a result of that, you have, theessay waters in the L'Oreals of the world, constantly jockeying for attentionby coming out with new products. But fundamentally speaking, how many face cleansers can you possibly come out with in any given year? And for them, I feel there's constant pressure to, it's different bells and whistles.
Whereas I think for us, we feel like the approach is actually, it's very similar to Mila in the sense that, it's understanding why a family buys a purifier and what that. That consumer experience looks like what that customer journey looks like and trying to ensure that every incremental change or refinement we make to that product, every feature we incorporate is delivering a tangible measurable benefit.
And so that's the thing, that's the same. That's the same approach we have with Day 22 is that I foresee us only.Launching one or two face cleansers, because if it works, why do you need a launch? The third, the fourth, the fifth to six, we don't have that kind of pressure. And similarly, I don't think our male cousins tumors or male customers are going to be jumping around, across five or six different face cleansers. Most men, they choose one that works and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So that's, again, I think that's where you see a bit of divergence in terms of approach and strategy between a traditional female dominated segment or a space that a lot of these bigger, incumbents are coming out of versus how we approach it.
Art: I know that one of the questions you get a lot is I think there'splenty of research out there that says that half of the. Brands that men usewere referred to them by their significant other their wife, their girlfriend, their mom, I guess that's not a significant other but somewhat female in their life.
And so how does that play into how thebrand markets itself? Even if it's not spending ad dollars, how does it thepositioning and the message get through if ha if traditionally half the quote, purchase decisions, initial purchase decisions are made by females.
Charles: Yeah, that's an interesting question because, we look at, forinstance, shell homeschool, which is predominantly female as a potentially oneof our core marketing channels.
What we see as that, what we feel, and thisis just a hypothesis, is that for our products to have, co, and this is maybe alittle bit gender biased, but female validation is very important. So to that extent, I think we would like to, market to females to buy for their significant others.
I think where we stopped short of maybesome of the other strategies that you see in the market, places that I don'tthink we necessarily want to market. Yeah. And again, this sounds very kind of sexist in a way, but we don't want to mark it in like a female way to women to the extent that we think that alienates most of our core male demographic.
And this is, it's a bit, again, maybecounterintuitive to the extent that, like the good looking guys that. All ofthe women fallen over on social media and some of them are quite feminine.
Charles: Whereas I don't think most men in China aspire to look like that.
I'm sure there's, there is a segment thattoo, and that's fine. But most, we call them and right. Like just men. They'reperfectly okay with using. Facewash and face lotion and some of these core products, and then maybe picking up a few things that help them address some pain points later on.
But these aren't the same men who are likeusing mascara, foundation and things like that.
Art: Okay. I imagine part of that conversation, the brand has with early,early with men, young men as consumers for these products is that. You takecare of yourself with take care of your skin and it doesn't make you one of these, if feminine, pretty boys KOL is or whatever it is, because like you said, probably not a lot of guys want to aspire to be that anyway.
I'm sure. But yet, yet that firstexperimentation of using products to take care of, take better care ofyourself, simply taking better care of yourself. I imagine even that is a bit of a process to get men comfortable stepping up into that routine from whatever normally products they're using, if nothing really fancy at all right now.
Charles: Yeah. There arephases, right? Men in this space, generally speaking and laggards compared totheir female counterparts. It's, I don't think we're after like the guy who's washing was showering every third day with soap. Dish detergent or something.
And it's a bridge too far. I think it'smore, those guys that are coming from, mass market supermarket brands thatmaybe they used in the dorms or, coming out of college. And now you look at the other areas in their life where they are starting to be more mindful of how they look, how they feel confidence, et cetera.
These are the folks that are starting tothe gym or working out they start to care a little bit more about what theywear. And of course not all this is just for others. A lot of it is actually, the Navy for themselves, they want to feel more put together. They want to feel you're more like like a more polished in a sense.
And we think that skincare is absolutelyfundamental to that, right? You can wear, the most expensive trendiest, best intheir opinion, best looking outfit. But if you're covered in acne or zits or, you have, an oil prop, which a lot of guys in China do that's a huge thing to how you want to present yourself.
Art: Chinese consumers are also notoriously fickle or very willing to trynew brands. It's of course for a new brand is a great thing, but also retainingthose customers is also a challenge. And that's part of perhaps the reason why marketing costs are so expensive. You get to keep fighting for the eyeballs of the consumers.
You have, maybe they're a slightly lessloyal brand loyal than other places. But I know at the same time you said thatmen tend to also. Try a product they work and if it ain't broke, why fix it? How do you, who do you think wins out on that? The trend in China for customers to be a bit fickle and the trend for guys to be loyal to something that works well.
Charles: That's why I think we chose and this is still a hypothesis that wecan get the two out, but within that 20 to 25 age range these this is the timewhere, and it's a life stage where guys are more prone to experiment to try to figure out how to improve certain parts of their life. To that extent, I think there are, they are more experimental. But the flip side of that is, guys just typically aren't out and about looking for new skincare solutions. Like they're looking for, other stuff.
And so to that extent, I think. If we canhook them and give them the right solutions and, sell them products that theyfind are, good value address their needs and pain points. We hope to be able to take that journey with them from their early twenties through, when they get those promotions and when they, settle down a bit or when they have kids, whatever, and continue to.
Kind of deepen that type of dialogue withthem.
Art: That's a very valuable target market to have young consumers andthen stating if you can keep them as they grow older. What other products doyou think naturally Day 22 could move into down the line?
Charles: Hims, I think showed us that there is an opportunity to To give mensome of these more call it clinical solutions like hair loss and ed, I thinkfor China there is that that those could be relevant categories.
We also think about to some extent mentalhealth. We think about how we can actually, let me do that question.
Art: I'll just give you the question back again. So you trigger yourthoughts. So Day 22 is really trying to connect with a very valuable kind of target market.
And as you said these customers, we wantto, I try to keep myself out of this. It's not like an advertisement. The. So Day22 is really targeting a very valuable customer market, right? There's these men who are young and will grow and you can keep growing with them as they presumably get older, have more spending power and have more needs across the spectrum of different products to use.
Where do you see Day 22 growing, as far asnew products down the line.
Charles: That's, that's an interesting question. For us. We see, let's say ona 10 year journey between your twenties and thirties you're getting your first job, you're graduating college, you're getting your first job, you date, you get a girlfriend, you get married, let's say for some you get promotions probably towards the, depending on your habits and everything else.
Maybe by your early thirties, you've beenstarting to age a bit. Yeah. You start to be more mindful of of all thesedifferent, let me read your dad's still yeah, that's an interesting question because when you look at the journey for any given, guy going from his twenties to his thirties he's faced with a lot. He's going through a lot. He's getting, he's graduating college, he's getting his first job.
He's getting promoted. He's dating. Hemaybe has a girlfriend right? has 1.2kids,
Charles: Yeah. He's got kids now. And throughout those different milestonesand of course all the, while he's aging, I think different needs come to mind.Throughout that journey.
And what him showed us was that there iscertainly a relevant opportunity even in China, to consider topics like hairloss and anti-aging and ITI. I think mental awareness is also top of mind just looking at the market in China, basically all these different.
Areas where, it's they're in the mid topicsthat are not, something that you you know openly talk about maybe men,especially men, but if we can be that brand that is already delivering more and more kind of functional targeted skincare and health solutions to them.
We hope to be, that, that brand, that theyspeak to about these kinds of issues and of course deliver them even more morebroadly.
Art: And that's the difference between, you're not, they're not going tohave this conversation with L'Oreal this is different kind of brand in that sense.
Charles: Yeah. I think that's what makes, again, itgoes back to my comment about, depth over breadth. Of course, you think aboutthe quantifiable commercial metrics and that's, that is like long term value customer and things like that.
Art: So one question to take us home stereo, stereotypical founder the story goes that, they're searching for some solution to a problem.
They can't find it in the market. So theybuild it themselves. I don't know. I think that was the case, as I recall withMila, there was a lack of unaffordable, a relatively affordable air purifier in the market. But, and the pollution was quite bad when that came out.
But here were you solving your own problem?
Charles: No, for me personally I supermarket brands until this project inwhich, at which point I started, with market research and obviously later productdevelopment, I've now used hundreds of different brands and products now.
But for me the pain point, wasn't really just personally, but it was rather by observation having worked with a lot of,Young guys in China over the last 13 years also having worked on projects where, we've interacted quite a bit as brands S marketing to young guys in China.
I just feel most of the brands out there Idon't want to say it's negligence, but, they certainly aren't really. Thinkingabout men's needs and real needs and their problems as much as they could and that spans, skincare to all different other categories.
Art: Thanks Charles. This was a lot of fun. I think this is a category.This is a space that people are starting to realize is a huge market potential.I think the cat is already out of the bag on that, but how to fi to build a direct to consumer brand and compete with the bigger brands out there that are starting to reconfigure their products.
That's an interesting challenge. And itsounds Day 22 is. Is building something that can solve that problem and help consumers along the way that don't have a lot of good choices right now. I really appreciate you coming on Charles. Appreciate your time.
Charles: Thanks. All right. Always a good time.